Wednesday, June 11, 2008

4.0: The Continuing Saga

This actually started as a response to a comment by E under the 4.0 posting he left last week. It got a little long, as you can see I have quite a lot to say about a rule-set I’m truthfully unfamiliar with (for the most part). I’d like to sit here and take a “wait and see” approach to the new system, but I can’t realistically expect a company that screwed my childhood obsession up so badly with countless inane rules and clear exploitation of their rabid (and sometimes inexplicably loyal) fanbase not to continue this legacy with their ham-fisted approach to this “New Direction”.

E. really struck a nerve with this subject.

Anyway, if you haven’t yet seen his comment, here it is, followed by my reply:

After more research I have come across this:
Other Power Sources: Additional power sources and techniques provide characters of different classes with powers and abilities. These will appear in future Player’s
Handbook volumes. For example, barbarians and druids draw on the primal forces of nature, monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki).

Of course you guys have probably read this already. Looks like job security for the guys at Wizards, strike two...

And now my reply:

This is precisely what I expected and feared. What could we possibly expect from a company who also ruined their own card game by the constant issuing of new sets and expansions that flooded retailers and imbalanced the game? Expect more of this kind of exploitation. I predict the "Complete Gnome" players handbook to be announced within weeks along with an apology for not including what they will describe as "An unfortunate underestimation of the immense popularity of the gnome race amongst our vast and appreciated fan base. We promise that oversights like these will no longer occur here at WoTC. Now look for the Minotaur monster race to be included in our Monster Manual II, due out next September!" It’s all BS. I understand an American company’s drive to make money, I mean they don't create these games just because they share our passion for gaming. They're in it to make a buck and have every right to do so, but don't take us for idiots. We know why these books are so much slimmer than those of v3 and 3.5. Because the issuing of regular supplements are where their profit margins become larger. The crime this time, unlike in past versions of D&D, is that the supplements are now a requirement to own. Especially now that they've got us hooked on the crack that is the Barbarian and Druid classes that they've conveniently left out of their "Core" rulebooks. What a joke. It used to be that supplements were only for class enthusiasts (the reason I bought Tome and Blood for my mages, it was the only player handbook supplement that I ever owned) the truly “Hardcore” or completist pricks that had the disposable income and the retarded fascination with owning everything ever released by TSR, WoTC etc.. With one exception I never bought the supplements, and truthfully never needed to. And I was thankful to TSR and WoTC for only dangling the carrot instead of jamming it down our throats as they’re doing now.

This “New Direction” better be worth it or you’ll be finding my books on Amazon.com faster than the Wizard of The Coast can cast “Power Word: Enchant and Exploit Fan Base”.

16 comments:

  1. I was not/am not trying to ruffle any feathers here. I just see this as an obstacle we will face at some point. I also did not start this topic as a means to bash the new system. I just wanted to see where everyone was on 4.0 so that we can all be prepared for a change if we, as a group, so choose. So far it seems that we will not be switching over unless further research or another member of the group persuades us otherwise.

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  2. I understand that you didn't intend to ruffle any feathers. This is just a topic I'm particularly sensitive to and passionate about. This is my forum to get stuff off my chest. I'm not happy with what I've heard about 4.0 thus far and the choice to leave out the Druid and Barbarian class until a supplement is released only furthers the theory of gamers everywhere that 4.0 is not an improvement of the game so much as it is a money-grab.

    As I've said before I hope I'm wrong.

    We'll know as soon as Patch tells us all about it.

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  3. I already new about this this beforehand. Supposely WoTC intends to release a new set of core books annualy, New Classes/Powers/Feats and whateverr in the player guide, and new monsters in the monsters guide. God knows what kind of crap they can fill another DMs Guide with (Capitalism at its best).

    Anyways, like i said before, I'm not pushing us to switch to 4th edition or maintain what we're doing. I'm up for whatever the majority wants to do as a whole. Weither that means swicth to 4th edition, 3.5., 3.0, 2.0.. Basic... hell fuck d&d and play star frontiers for all I care. As long as everyone is happy and the DM isn't PMSing, I'm happy.
    heh
    where the f'n spell check?

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  4. I'm not suggesting we switch to 4.0 or not. I'm just "PMS'ing" about WoTC taking advantage of rabid nerds every 4-5 years. It gets old. However, what people seem to be missing is that I'm trying to stay as open minded as possible and, if 4.0 turns out to be any improvement (especially if it makes gameplay smoother and faster) I'm all for switching. But not until the Barbarian and Druid supplements come out, of course.

    Star Frontiers? Hmmm.... Maybe after I kill you guys off I could round up my stuff from my shed and kill you again. In that game. ;p

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  5. On a side note, nice to see Ademar's post and my "PMS'ing" as someone so eloquently put, has inspired Patch into taking a break from his busy day long enough to post a comment.

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  6. oh.. yeah PMSing...
    Players Mass Slaghtering...
    So if you kill us all off, I'll be very unhappy

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  7. Oh, that kind of PMS'ing. I thought you meant the other kind.

    Nice save.

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  8. Heres a Post a came accross

    How could they do this? Alllowing players to heal to full...

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How could they allow players to use their healing surges in such amounts as to heal from 0 to full in 1 day? I mean at 0 you're practically dead from poison or pain and then BOOM you're fully healed and able?

    I don't understand it.

    Without divine help or potion, how can a PC give real devotion to his character if he knows that no matter how broken he gets, at the end of the day he'll be able to heal to full without any knowledge or special abilities.

    To me, that's crap.

    It takes away a very real part of D&D and that's waiting until you're healed up to go on or needing to find a person who knows what they're doing (Cleric or Alchemist) to heal you up.

    What a your takes on it?


    ANSWER

    Healing surges do make sense simply because people don't understand what "hit points" mean to this day. I remember having to debate about "hit points"for an hour before starting a D&D session with friends. Hit points is not only bruises and scratches, infact only when bloodied which I think when you reach either half your total hit points (not sure) is when you start feeling pain. Before that, I think it's more of a "fatigue" representation. Think about it, when your enemies "attack" is successful, yes you suffer hit points, just like the real world boxing matches where you get hit in the first few rounds and you don't really start to get serious cuts later rounds. So basically, your hits will start wearing your enemies down and eventually when they reach 0 (enemies only), you kind of do a finishing move like decapitating his arm or something and your opponent dies.

    But to anwser your question, as long as healing surges don't heal you as much as a spell for example, I don't mind. Even during an enounter, there are powers that grant a healing surge while fighting but it dosn't mean you magically heal or close your wounds in mere seconds (think about wolverine in X-man). What it means is that you recover from fatigue and last longer in a battle.

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  9. I hope this isn't true. If it is, and we do switch, I think thats the first rule that'll go bye-bye.

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  10. I agree that that rule is stupid. No how, no way should a character be able to heal themselves without rest, potion or spell. That rule makes absolutely no sense at all. I disagree with the author of that post about hit points too. Hit points are hit points and fatigue is fatigue they are not the same thing.

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  11. Nope not gonna do it. Read more of the phb, this game is just retarded. Mages and clerics just cast spells continuously with no spell memorization or rest? Every character class is built like some sort of super hero with all these powers and special abilities. Any schmuck off the street can cast a spell from a scroll or spell book? Heal yourself, no cleric required! Oh yea, how about giving everyone the exact (nearly) same hit points?! How much fun is a game where everyone is the same? After 10th level how bout you pick a new class, I don't care if you want to stay a standard wizard, now you are going to be an ARCHMAGE with all new powers!!!!!
    Here is a link to check out: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13842.phtml
    I don't know who the author of this is but even with all the horrific (in my opinion) points they bring up they still score it with a 4/4 out of 5/5? You guys can do what you want, I've seen enough and I will not play 4E. Give me my Rules Cyclopedia back!

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  12. There is some accuracies in what you say, but mostly inaccuracies.

    The Wizard i believe is the only class that uses memorization. You most certainly must rest, short rest (5 mins) to get back your encounter powers and a extended rest (6 hours) to get back your daily powers.

    Yea, I don't see the commoner class in the book, I think they are heroic classes. Haven't classes always got special abilities or some sort of powers?

    Unfortunately, yes, it looks like any schmuck off the street can use ritual scrolls (everything on the scroll is mostly done all you need to complete is the final piece), although if not trained in the corresponding skill, might not turn out so well. As far as Ritual Spell Books, you must have the feat for it, the feat requires you to be trained in arcana or religion(Clerics and Wizards start with this as a bonus feat).

    Yep, people can spend all their healing surges out of combat. A cleric, paladin, or warlord make a party much stronger, but not needed.

    On the low end 4 hp per lvl and on the high end 7. Not much difference at first but in the long run more. Keep in mind hit points in general are not as high in 4e.
    a 30th lvl Wizard 10+(29*4)+con score = 136 (with con of 10)
    15+(29*7)+con score = 228 ( con score of 10)
    I see a big difference.

    At 11th level, you pick a path to continue on. (Archmage isn't until 21st lvl) Each class has 3 or 4 paths to choose from. They are basically like 2nd edition class kits or 3rd edition prestige classes(more like a kit though). Now if you have been gearing yourself up for multiclassing at this point at certain levels you can start taking powers from your other class, instead of picking a path.





    Hit points are going to end up resembling

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  13. Even having to take a feat to be able to cast spells from a scroll does not justify what they have done. The reason you become a mage or cleric is the fact that you want a character who can wield magic. Why would you do it now when your greataxe wielding fighter can do 20-30 points of damage in melee plus heal himself and cast fireballs from his scrolls?

    Talking about hit points, I was not referring to cross class hp but class to class hp. Obviously a fighter has more hp than a wizard but, why are all fighters at any level (compare two 1st level fighters / two 10th level fighters)within a few hp of each other? What happened to variety in this game? I always thought of rolling hp as a challenge within the game. If you roll low it's just an obstacle for your character to overcome.

    3rd edition and AD&D both had prestige classes and kits but they were not mandatory! Going into 11th level Ademar is just happy to be a standard rogue, he is not interested in being a Cat Burglar, Daggermaster, Master Infiltrator, or a Shadow Assassin. Why then, do I have to pick one?

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  14. You should take a look at the rituals, don't know where you got the info, but its bad info. Definitely right about the hitpoints though. They took the variable out of it, personally I like it. With all things considered and balance in mind, I think they made the right choice.

    I think Ademar would make a good Cat Burglar, heh (as Loomis would say)

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  15. Reading the 4.0 race descriptions, it seems that in my world the Elves of Kemmermere would be split into two different racial groups. They would now be the Eladrin of the Citadel of Mist and the Elves of Sanctuary. I guess if I ended up switching over to 4.0 it wouldn't be a huge shakeup, I just wonder whether or not it was a truly necessary change on the part of WotC.

    It seems Eladrin are the equivalent of High elves. Whatever.

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  16. It wouldn't have "new" content if they didn't F with all the races too! They've already exploited everything else why leave that alone?

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